*sigh* I need all your help, gang

[Leslie]

So for two weeks since the dog fight for the most part we have kept Loki & Zuzu separate while Loki had her foot bandaged. Loki got the bandage and the stitches out Friday night and spent Saturday in her X-pen.  She was hurting.  If we took them outside, Loki was always on a leash and they have limited contact when we are both home.

Today they had a little more contact and both were sitting nicely on the sofa.  Zuzu did the little "Play wiff me nose poke" and we decided to see where this would go. I'm not sure why or how but Zuzu gave a little growl--a growl like she meant it, so off behind the gate she went.

I had to run a 30 minute errand so I asked DH to keep them separate. I had a little cry on the way home from the store because I  know in my heart of hearts that Loki's cognitive dysfunction could make the aggression worse and I love her but....

When I came home both dogs were in the kitchen.

Now, izzit just me, or does not a trip to the hospital emergency room, two weeks of antibiotics and pain killers that made me puke PLUS the fact that my gosh darn hand still hurts PLUS the trip to the vet and eight stitches for Loki and two weeks for her foot bandages.  Do I not have the right to be the least bit hinky about all this????

[Dr. Beau Leaky]

Yes, you do.
And it's Cesar Millan to the rescue!!!

It's in a Dog Whisperer iTunes podcast of 29 Feb 2008.  Sophie the basset has to learn to get along with the three dachshunds in her hoograndma's pack.  At one point she attacks one of the wieners, and another wiener, Esther, can be seen running for her life to the screen door of the house!!  Cesar explains that when dogs fight, you need to put the aggressor in a submissive position RIGHT then and while the victim is there.  The message you are sending is that growling, attacking, etc., is not acceptable and NOT ALLOWED!  If Zuzu growls, you should immediately roll her onto her back and hold her there until she relaxes in a calm, submissive state.  Loki feels empowered and Zuzu gets a valuable message. :apls:

I must say, the look of terror on the poor doxie Cesar is holding is priceless.  He keeps setting it down and it keeps tying to get AWAY from Jaws, a.k.a. Sophie.  I have it in my computer, I wonder if I could post it to uTube.  I'll try.

Auntie Karen

O.K., it's not uploadable.  Let me film it on my camera and then upload it from there. :thumb:

[Leslie]

easier said than done, Karen.  DH has never been able to handle the dogs he freaks out at the SLIGHTEST problem.  Absolutely NO GOOD In a crisis whatsoever he just FREAKS OUT.  And while I was in the ER (my BIL took me) I told DH not to let the dogs together (and mind you, we had no idea how badly Loki's foot was injured) and not only did he let them together, he let them sit on his mother's lap.

So I can't trust Loki; I can't trust DH and I'm not too sure about Zuzu today, either.

Frankly I am very shaken by this afternoon's episode. I am not Ceasar Milan and Loki's a powerful dog.  The doctor said there is the possibility of permanent nerve damage in my hand.  Fortunately that does not seem to be the case, but I cannot understate the truth that if Loki had gotten ahold of Zuzu that night she would have killed her.

And an interesting footnote, two years ago, before Loki had the ruptured disc in her neck I WAS using the Ceasar Milan technique, I was giving her the neck poke and making her sit and behave.  There was some success with that, but I cannot rule out that the repeated neck pokes didn't progress the rupture of those discs.  And she has two spondylosis  "hooks" in her spine, so putting a dog on her back with at least two calcified sections in her spine is absolutely out of the question. For Zuzu, I just won't risk it, either, what with the doxie spine that is built like a pixie stick.

Also you should know we have a TINY house and keeping Loki in a pen means non-stop hooting and hollering -- right smack in the middle of the TINY TINY house.

We can't have people over because she fusses so--and BELIEVE ME I have TOLD EVERYONE "No touch, no talk, no eye contact" and they all FREAKING IGNORE ME. It takes a village to raise a dawg and no one in the family has been one bit of constructive help.

So I don't know what to do.

[Madderoos Mom]

Leslie, I sent you a private message.  :)

[papbouv]

How is their obedience ? have you googled NILF Dog Training it might help.As for the husband I also have one that is not into dogs never does much anything with them lets them out sometimes gives them dry food, once or twice a year fills up a water bowl.Patches has him wrapped around her paw he dose not like Buddy.
Maybe if you sit hubby down and talk to him Dead Dog is a possibility if he does not comply with keeping them apart you sometimes have to be very straight forward with men.He may think it will not happen again too ask him.Sorry I know Auntie Karen Loves Cesar but his methods are out dated I know you see him doing his thing on TV but how long did he really work with any dog.They have done several studies that doing the Alfa Roll can some times make aggression worse. I would never do it to a Dachshund because of their long spines and potential back problems. Have you talked to a certified behaviorist  if you have one in your area they are hard to find. I have a feeling they will tell you keep them apart.
Victoria Stillwell seems to do well had two American Bulldogs female & male female was first in the house and possessive would attack the male they also had a 7 year old and a baby in the house which the female dog growled at the baby.Victoria used the removal technique if they looked like they were going to start up out of the room until the dog was calm you have to learn and know dog body language by heart almost does one give the other the stink eye,growl,change body stance in anyway if they did you could call one down before anything got started? Good Luck

[Dee Dee and Hallie]

This...is...why....I...am...not....married...or...have...more...than...one....dog.
This is a really tough one Les! This would all drive me nuts too. I am so sorry you are going thru this, with Loki's dementia problem, I really doubt if there could be a way to be able to totally trust the 2 again. It's not her fault and Zuzu can't understand that, so the biggest obstacle is getting DH to understand the gravity of the situation. Like Papbouv says maybe if you can convince him that it could mean losing Loki he will take it more seriously? How often is DH home along with the girls?

[Roberta]

No you have the right ot be as we Aussies cal it p$$%%ed of. Leslie on DH side try  a bit of 4x2, kidding aside I know where you are coming from Nick, I love him to bits but he is duh in dog rearing or managing them or a crisis if it involved me. But I would try the, what will happen if it goes to far.....one of them, at least dead, and does he have any inkling as it what and why it is happening and has he thought about how to tackle it.
Roberta

[Leslie]

How is their obedience ? have you googled NILF
Maybe if you sit hubby down and talk to him Dead Dog is a possibility if he does not comply with keeping them apart you sometimes have to be very straight forward with men.He may think it will not happen again too ask him.
Victoria used the removal technique if they looked like they were going to start up out of the room until the dog was calm you have to learn and know dog body language by heart almost does one give the other the stink eye,growl,change body stance in anyway if they did you could call one down before anything got started? Good Luck

I have talked to DH until I was blue in the face and crying.  NILF doesn't work he is NOT DOING IT. His technique when Loki is hooting and hollering is to repeat three times: "I don't have anything." and then give her a treat to shut her up.  I have tried to explain that they don't speak english, "I don't have anything" means TREAT TIME!!.

I also suspect a behaviorist cannot help if there is dementia going on. 

He absolutely will not comply with my requests.  Partly because he cannot read their body language, partly because he gets so exasperated and also he has an inability to think outside the moment.  When we driving home from the vet's office after Loki had her stitches out, Loki was riding shotgun and DH was driving. (I was in the back seat)  Of course she gnashed at her foot.  AT least three times he sed: "SHE'S CHEWING HER FOOT!!"  I sed, I know, we'll be home soon and we'll put the collar on.  "SHE'S CHEWING IT!" He was like completely freaked out for heaven's sake. I thought he was going to get us in a car accident.  Finally I said: "STFU we'll be home in two minutes."  Later that day she got her toenail stuck in a floor grate.  I am glad he did not see it, because I just waited the 30 seconds to see if she could get it unstuck--which she did, but he would have hopped around and shouted and made it worse.

So, even if I do everything a behaviorist tells us, there is no way in heck that he will listen to or follow any instruction and it will all be undone.  Frankly this situation is causing DH to come completely unglued. 

[Delia and girls]

Oh, Leslie. I can only imagine your frustration. I'm guessing you've already looked into getting Loki on medication? I'm with you on the dementia hindering any kind of training. It does seem extra frustrating that your husband doesn't want to face the facts and help you. I'm sorry I have no helpful suggestions. I just wanted to let you know I'm thinking and praying for you.

[Dr. Beau Leaky]

Man, this just SUCKS!! :jaw:

Well, I dunno.  Plan B is break out the Xanax for you, the Prozac for Loki and the Valium for Zuzu! :thinik:

Plan C is Jack Daniels for you and a couple of Miller lites for the puppers!! :thumb:

You certainly have a difficult situation.  At least you have us to vent at.  We all love you and Loki and the Zu-ster!

Auntie Karen 

P.S. Maybe you need to medicate DH!!

[Barb]

Oh, Leslie. I can only imagine your frustration. I'm guessing you've already looked into getting Loki on medication? I'm with you on the dementia hindering any kind of training. It does seem extra frustrating that your husband doesn't want to face the facts and help you. I'm sorry I have no helpful suggestions. I just wanted to let you know I'm thinking and praying for you.

Ditto to what everyone has said !  I would check with your vet and see if they can give Loki any kind of meds to mellow her out.....so frustrating and sad for us as they age.  DH?  Whelp, I had one just like him...HAD is the operative word - LOL !  Not suggesting you unload him.....but again, SO friggin frustrating when he won't even do what you ask.

  We are here for ya.... and  that you can work through this.......

[klsb]

I dont know how well you can exersice your dogs if one has a bad back. But something that might really help is making sure that they rent together unless they have burned alot of energy.\

(Auntie Karen i am also an avid Ceaser follower and this is also one of his tricks)

Sometimes alot of aggression can be pent up energy. They are full of nervous, or excited or anxious energy and they need to get it out and sometines they use aggression as an outlet. Also think about it, if you are hurting or grumpy even and full of energy but cant really do anything about it, your way more likely to be snappy and irritable right? Instead of if your more sleepy and content, your not going to be as much of a crab. So try walking both dogs TOGETHER for a long, long walk when both seem pooped, let them be together and just make sure to keep an eye on them. BUT dont be too tense!! I know i know its practically impossibe, but they will sense it.

Same goes for the reverse, if you can tell either/or both dogs are restless or hyper/excited, keep them seperated untill they are exersiced out or calmed down.

My mom and i had two full grown Akitas, mother and son, who would break out into spontaneous fights. She was about 85lbs and he was 130lbs!!!! That was more then what both my mom and me weighed at the time. And we ended up noticing a trend in their behaviour before fights. So when we could tell one was more anxious or excited (pacing, jumping barking) we would seperate them and almost never had a problem. You really learn to read your dogs signs and can tell when his buttons are ready to be pushed.

I hope thats helpful!

[Marcia from MI]

Leslie,

I wish I had something to offer, but the only time any of my furkids were aggressive was when Sully Angel started to attack Eddie for no reason.  Eddie would be sitting there and Sully would go after him.  At first I was able to control him with voice commands, but when he tried to attack me as we passed in the doorway between the kitchen and living room that was it.  My vet was very helpful and we tried everything to prevent the outbursts, but nothing worked.  I told her that I tried the over the counter pet calming pills and she told me that sometimes they may have the opposite effect on the dog. 

Dementia is a horrible state for the dog to be in and seeing them like that breaks my heart luckily my guys only got stuck in corners and had no aggressive tendencies or I don't know what I'd do.  Gentle hugs to Loki.

[Leslie]

Leslie,

I wish I had something to offer, but the only time any of my furkids were aggressive was when Sully Angel started to attack Eddie for no reason.  Eddie would be sitting there and Sully would go after him.  At first I was able to control him with voice commands, but when he tried to attack me as we passed in the doorway between the kitchen and living room that was it.  My vet was very helpful and we tried everything to prevent the outbursts, but nothing worked.  I told her that I tried the over the counter pet calming pills and she told me that sometimes they may have the opposite effect on the dog. 

Dementia is a horrible state for the dog to be in and seeing them like that breaks my heart luckily my guys only got stuck in corners and had no aggressive tendencies or I don't know what I'd do.  Gentle hugs to Loki.

This is the first time we have seen Loki instigate the aggression. Usually it's Zuzu who starts a squabble over something she wants to possess.

Loki's other dementia--and we did start her on brain support kibble--has been numerous "table leg inspection" and the feeling that she doesn't know me.  ALSO!! Did I mention that on one of the foot check she fainted in the waiting room???? DH sed it looked like she was slipping on her bandaged bad foot and then she just went down.  After some minutes, she was herself again, but his negative energy level did NOTHING to help her feel confident getting into or out of the car later.

So, the aggression two weeks ago was a FIRST for Loki.

Do you think Zuzu can pick up her "vibe"?  One would think, that in the wild, when an alpha gets weak, the Omega dawgs are confused, and want to move into that position. (?)

Good, thoughtful responses, everyone, thank you.

[papbouv]

When Gizmo had dementia the vet recommended the Fish Oil capsules with the Omga 3-6 in it suppose to help with dementia.Gizmo was tiny about 6 # very small throat to poke a capsule down would not eat anything if, I poked a hole and squeezed the oil on her food very,very picky eater. May try Rescue Remedy too to calm them or one of the plug in products suppose to have the pheromones of a Momma dog ? suppose to calm dogs too.The vets have two pills out they some times give but I'm not sure of the names,have you talked to your vet about the fight I'm sure you most likely have since you had to have the foot stitched up.It is hard to deal with a dog with Dementia Gizmo lived with it for about 2 & 1/2 years let her go due to not eating.

[Doxherding Karen]

:meme: Yes, there definitely is an "alpha displacement" phenomenon and that may be at work.

Guinness is the "honorary" alpha male here. :thumb:  He "thinks" he's in charge, even though Merlin actually is.  Beau likes to pick fights with Merlin whenever he thinks there might be a change in the pecking order, i.e., he went to the clinic to get shots and came outside to the Herd.  Since he was the first (and only) do through the door, he thought he might be alpha now so he snarled and did a lot of air-biting.

So if you want to reinforce the standing, you can make sure the alpha gets fed first, gets a treat first and goes through a doorway first.  Maybe that will help.

Auntie Karen

[Marcia from MI]

Actually Auntie Karen Ima is in charge.  We, girls tend to take charge in a stealth way.  We never say anything until someone really p***es us off then we take over.  Just ask my kitty friends, they'll tell ya. 


Danni

[Delia and girls]

How are things going with you guys?

[Leslie]

no change. no improvement. just limping along, trying to see where this is going. Thanks for asking.   

[Barb]

no change. no improvement. just limping along, trying to see where this is going. Thanks for asking.