Percutaneous Laser Disc Ablation Surgery for IVDD. . .

[Doxherding Karen]

. . .reports Oklahoma State University Center for Veterinary Health Sciences, which says it's the only provider of the highly successful treatment for dogs.

Treatments on 325 dogs have shown a 96.6% success rate, with only nine dogs since 1993 needing repeat treatments.  For the procedure, surgeons insert needles into the centers of the disc locations.  Then they apply the laser.  The treatment liquifies the disc material and scar tissue prevents the disc from herniating.  The procedure costs about $1,500.

Information:  www.cvhs.okstate.eu; phone # 405-744-6623

This is from an article in Dog Fancy May 2008 issue.  This sounds like a good deal for doxies!

Karen

[Dee Dee and Hallie]

I was excited when I first heard about this a few years ago but I asked Neuro #1 about it and he said it hasn't been much more successful than regular fenestration so he couldn't see putting that much money into the equipment. I was disappointed as I was ready to run Hallie out to Oklahoma! If she is even dealing with a disc I wondered in her case if her dilated spinal cord would be an issue for the procedure. It does sound good in the article by OSU. It has been available for several years now so I do wonder why it hasn't caught on more and other vets offering it. Would love to have it be as good as they say. Maybe in time it will be more popular.

[Doxherding Karen]

I wonder.  Minimally invasive laser surgery with needles as opposed to standard spinal surgery sounds like a no-brainer to me.

I VIVIDLY remember getting pins put in my elbow back in 1975 when a neighbor's dog knocked me off my bike.  Ortho pain is the absolute WORST!!  Give me five more c-sections any time!!!

Could it be the doctor is unimpressed with a procedure he doesn't do?  My poor Hallie girl would be a lot happier with a trip to Oklahoma!!


Karen

[Roberta]

As I was saying out here there is a guy who puts in a prothesis in place of the disc and seems to be having good results, he was not available when Amy needed surgery.
Just had a look at amy's paperwork she had a Hemilaminectomy, and as I said to Dee Dee on the phone he went in from under neath, plus the guy we say instead of crate rest they had physio and water tredmill with in two days of surgery.


This is an article from a site about peter Laverty he is the one the Dachie people here rave about
3. Spinal injuries healed in dogs


In what is probably the most sensational medical discovery of 2004, Australian vet Peter Laverty and his team in the US have for the first time been able to heal acute spinal injuries in dogs - with implications for human trauma.

Using polyethylene glycol [PEG], the vets were able to prevent permanent spinal damage in dogs that had experienced severe spinal trauma â€" even to the point of paralysis.

In the study, published in the Journal of Neurotrauma, 19 injured dogs were injected with PEG (a non-toxic liquid with the same type of molecules found in antifreeze) in addition to standard trauma treatment such as steroid injections, swimming and surgery. Within eight weeks, 13 regained use of their hind legs. Nearly 75 per cent of the dogs that were treated with PEG were able to resume a normal life. Some healed so well they could go on as though nothing had happened.

The polymer was able to repair membrane damage and stop dying cells from sending chemical "suicide signals" to nearby cells, thereby limiting damage, said researchers.

The polymer, first tested on guinea pig spinal cord cells five years ago, is attracted to damaged nerve cells only. The benefits of this research for humans are yet to be demonstrated. Human spinal processes differ from those of dogs and so may the impact of PEG treatment. To read the complete scientific paper as it appeared in Journal of Neurotrauma click here.

http://www.azom.com/news.asp?newsID=2387 some added info that might help

If you want I could give them both our guy and peter laverty a call and see if they know anyone in your area Dee Dee

[Dee Dee and Hallie]

That is very interesting Roberta, yes I would love to hear if anyone is doing that near here. More to Google! Thanks. It sure did seem to work with wee Amy. And so nice she did not have to be strictly crated.

Karen I wonder too. There could be many legitimate reasons it is not a widely used procedure. I would love to think this is the miracle surgery we all are hoping for. But I question why, when I first heard about it a good 10 years ago, it is not the standard treatment now if it really is that good. Didn't they say their recurrance rate was about 3.6% or so...I understand regular fenestration is about 11% (unfortunately my Jessie was in that 11% and had several recurrances the rest of her life after a complete fenestration). Maybe the cost of the equipment and the training involved to become good enough at it is prohibitive given the slight margin of increased success over traditional fenestration, even though it would be an easier procedure for the dog. Prophilactic fenestration has always been controversial regardless.

Here is an older article about what looks to be the first dog who had a recurrance after laser disc ablation. I wish they had updated him beyond this.

http://bajaokla.com/dachback/prevent.htm

It's too bad they have to be healthy at the time of the procedure, maybe more people would do this if it could be done while their dog is in pain. It would be hard to bring in your dog when it is feeling healthy for a surgery like that, when you aren't even sure it would happen again. Maybe that is part of why not more do it. I would take Hallie to OK in a heartbeat if it would greatly increase her chances of living like a normal dog again. But if the success rate is only a bit more than traditional, I don't know if it would be worth it, I am not planning to have fenestration at all at this point if she needs surgery, since it didn't do a great job with my Jessie, I'd probably go with the laminectomy. Unless I can learn more about the ablation in the meantime, the only articles I can find on it other than the one I linked to above have been the one written by OSU and of course that is going to make it sound good. And maybe it is...I just don't have enough proof yet, and in our case anyway, not even sure yet it is a disc we are dealing with and if we are, if this d%*! dilated spinal cord thing would make it more risky for her. The dachshund back thing just REALLY sucks.

Oooh I see they offer this in DALLAS!!! (Delia!!!)
http://www.dfwvetsurgeons.com/whatsnew.html
Soooo....wonder why Gretchens surgeon did not suggest this procedure?

[Dee Dee and Hallie]

And what the heck does THIS mean?? 

Partial percutaneous discectomy for treatment of thoracolumbar disc protrusion: retrospective study of 331 dogs
S. Kinzel11Department of Laboratory Animal Science University of Technology Aachen, Pauwelsstraße 30, 52074 Aachen, Germany, M. Wolff11Department of Laboratory Animal Science University of Technology Aachen, Pauwelsstraße 30, 52074 Aachen, Germany, A. Buecker**Department of Clinic of Diagnostic Radiology University of Technology Aachen, Pauwelsstraße 30, 52074 Aachen, Germany, G. A. Krombach**Department of Clinic of Diagnostic Radiology University of Technology Aachen, Pauwelsstraße 30, 52074 Aachen, Germany, T. Stopinski11Department of Laboratory Animal Science University of Technology Aachen, Pauwelsstraße 30, 52074 Aachen, Germany, M. Afify11Department of Laboratory Animal Science University of Technology Aachen, Pauwelsstraße 30, 52074 Aachen, Germany, C. Weiss††Department of Institute of Medical Statistics, University of Technology Aachen, Pauwelsstraße 30, 52074 Aachen, Germany and W. Kupper11Department of Laboratory Animal Science University of Technology Aachen, Pauwelsstraße 30, 52074 Aachen, Germany1Department of Laboratory Animal Science University of Technology Aachen, Pauwelsstraße 30, 52074 Aachen, Germany *Department of Clinic of Diagnostic Radiology University of Technology Aachen, Pauwelsstraße 30, 52074 Aachen, Germany †Department of Institute of Medical Statistics, University of Technology Aachen, Pauwelsstraße 30, 52074 Aachen, Germany
Abstract
Objectives: To determine retrospectively the prognosis and outcome for dogs diagnosed with thoracolumbar intervertebral disc disease treated with partial percutaneous discectomy (PPD).

Methods: Three hundred and thirty-one dogs presenting with symptoms of thoracolumbar intervertebral disc disease from 1998 to 2003 were treated with PPD. Diagnosis and location of intervertebral disc disease was confirmed by clinical examination, radiography, myelography and magnetic resonance imaging. PPD was performed via fluoroscopy-guided removal of a 5 mm bore cylinder out of the central intervertebral space.

Results: Clinical success after surgery was achieved in 159 (88·8 per cent) grade II to IV patients and 58 (38·2 per cent) grade V patients. The mean (sd) time from percutaneous discectomy to first improvement was 8·3 (13·2) days.

Clinical Significance: The PPD approach to the thoracolumbar spine involves minor trauma (yielding rapid recovery) and less pain, and produces results comparable with open fenestration. Consequently, this simple minimal invasive technique can be recommended as an alternative to the technique of fenestration and can be easily performed in addition to open surgical decompression techniques or prophylactically. However, it is not a replacement for surgical treatment in dogs with thoracolumbar disc disease that require removal of disc fragments causing spinal cord or nerve root compression.

[PattyInAK]

I wonder.  Minimally invasive laser surgery with needles as opposed to standard spinal surgery sounds like a no-brainer to me.

I VIVIDLY remember getting pins put in my elbow back in 1975 when a neighbor's dog knocked me off my bike.  Ortho pain is the absolute WORST!!  Give me five more c-sections any time!!!

Could it be the doctor is unimpressed with a procedure he doesn't do?  My poor Hallie girl would be a lot happier with a trip to Oklahoma!!


Karen

As one who is currently suffering from the pain of a bulging disc...........I say, give me five of those root canals like the one I had where they couldn't deaden the nerve all the way than put me thru this pain any longer.

[PattyInAK]

Dan faxed my MRI report to the Laser Spine Institute in Tampa, Florida.  They will analyze it for free and let me know if I am a candidate for laser spine surgery.  Dan is all ready to fly with me to Florida if this will work.  Of course, the insurance company holds all the cards.  We are going to get a second opinion and check out possible laser surgery in Anchorage, as well as on the west coast.
Would Hallie like to come with me and get fixed also, we could keep each other company.

[Doxherding Karen]

Can you two get a group rate?  Share a room?  I hear Hallie makes a great roommate!!! :thumb:

Merlin

[PattyInAK]

I just bet that Hallie could carry on a very intelligent conversation!

[Roberta]

www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1748-5827.2005.tb00276.x

Here is the full paper it just means ( I think) that they drill a small hole that reduces the pressure from within the cord and taking the biopsy removes some of the debri
Roberta

[Delia and girls]

OMG!! The Dallas hospital is where Gretchen had her back surgery. I see they didn't offer this until 2007. At least that's when the article was written and it's under the 'What's New' part of their website. Gretchie had her surgery in 2003. Either way, they did a good job. She's had a few 'ouchie' episodes but nothing I would take her back to surgery for. It's nice to know that's an option, though. And it's local! C'mon down, Hallie! We'll fix ya right up!

Ilsa had her luxating patella surgery at the Southlake hospital. I didn't even know they had a website! Cool!

[Roberta]

Eamiled
Dee Dee also Colleen the breeder our pair are from when I called her re peter laverty, said to give Ms H, Ester C 2x650mg tablets per day, its non-acidic and water soluble,  and I should put Amy on one a day, she uses Wagners and she says it works wonders on her joints so I may dose me aswell.
Roberta

[Dee Dee and Hallie]

If I thought youd both be fixed I'd bring Hallie and meet you in Florida.

Thanks for that Roberta I can never get to the full article on that darn web site. Thanks too for talking to Colleen and the vit C tip! I used to give her C and E, I can't remember now why I stopped. But I can easily get more C.

I didn't realize that was the hospital you took Gretchen to! Well that explains why they didn't offer it then you were 4 years too early! You are only 4.6 hours from OSU...I looked it up to see if it was something I could drive to but we're back to the 4 day drive each way and I really can't fly her now with her spinal cord thing, neuro #2 said the altitude would not be good for that. :( But I still can't help but wonder how great this really is when it has not caught on anywhere else? I think if it were close like you have it, it would be a great alternative to make it easier on the dog to recover but wondering if the success rate is really that much better. I hope to never see a neurolgist again but if I do I will ask about it. I am getting concerned again because she is not recovered yet and I would think she should be at this point. I'm getting so sick of this, my dogs always end up suffering no matter what lengths I go to. 

[Roberta]

Dee dee its not just Vit C but ester C there is no proof to them being diffrent but  coleen says use the Ester C. You would not like her angry, she has a sweet wee man on her web page a tweenie and he is gorgeious oh if it was this year at this time, he reminds me of long fellow
Roberta

[Teresa]

I saw that I could get the article, but only if I pay 39.00 for it. I bet you could go to the library, though, and get a copy of it.....

[Roberta]

It must be something to do with viewing it from a US web based group as I have this total paper I printed it at work, but maybe the browser there is set up for gettting them as we are research do teresa and Dee Dee have fax and I'll fax it to you, if you do send them to my email and I'll bring it home to-night it is a interesting paper.
Roberta

[Roberta]

Dee Dee I've Emailed you it. Hope you got it
roberta

[Dee Dee and Hallie]

I get the same thing as Teresa, only part of the article and $39 to purchase the whole thing. We are lucky to have you Roberta! I did get the article thank you. It was very interesting and it says it is even better than laser disc ablation (and with greater success rate) because that can cause narrowing of the disc spaces where this does not. In searching, I found writings on this method as old as 1983...so again, if it is as good as they say why isn't it the standard of treatment now days? (may be some good reasons! But is my first question). I would love to see something like this be more universal it definitely sounds much easier on the dog, shorter recovery, less pain...if faced with it I'd definitely go that route if I had someone near me doing it. So far for laser anyway the closest is a good 4 day drive. Which I would of course do if it were to make a big difference from what we could have done here but still have to figure if the benefits are significant enough to go to those lengths?

Argh this is what I pay neurologists to know! I just don't get why they aren't all on the same page and up on the same techniques. I am considering sending Hallie's results to Dr. Bagley at WSU who I've heard several times now is one of the top neuros in the US and also has trained some of the top neuros (neuro #2, who does only laminectomies, was trained by him) and also ask him what he has heard and thinks about laser and PPD. It would be wonderful if these are as good as they sound and more vets start doing them.

Thanks again for the article it was very interesting and that is one I had not heard of. I would really like to know if anyone over here does this.