As ya'll know, Loki has been diagnosed with a degenerated disc. She has recovered nicely from the initial episode, but a degenerated disc will NEVER heal on itself. As I see it, it's not a matter of IF the thing will "blow", but when. That said, given Loki's overall good health and relatively young age (about 6 or 7) wouldn't it make sense to go ahead with the surgery BEFORE she experieinces a traumatic disc popping incident?
I know this sounds radical, but I am currently only working two days a week and could devote a lot of time for post-op recovery. And, hey, vet bills will only get more expensive. Spend $2,000 in 2006 as compared to $3,000 in 2011, eh? Having this surgery now also saves us the hundreds of dollars in trips to the vet, meds, and terrible hand wringing--not to mention a lot of pain and discomfort for Loki.
Your opinion/input??
p.s. the sofa safety belt is working out well; we are ALL being re-trained :grin: .
Interesting........I think that I would not only take a poll with the experienced folks here - but also with several vets and those that have seen and treated dachshunds. Not necessarily vets close to you - a search on the net should reap a listing of doxie vets. Contacting them via e-mail or call to get their opinions also. I would be interested in the results you come up with.
Glad Loki is doing better and that the retraining in your home is going well.....I think that is the case for all of us !!!!
Leslie, my best advice would be to talk to at least two specialists, let them look her over and listen to what their advice is! Thank God I haven't had a dachshund with a back issue, yet! This isn't an area I know much about. I do know that my vet and others here and elsewhere I know, really think the longer you wait once they go down the worse it is! But she seems to be doing well? :dontknow:
What a very hard decision you have to make. I recently had 2 surgeries done on my sheperd, that many people said she was too old for, they were sucessful and she will probably live longer and healthier because of it. I feel for your decision! Please know we are sending our prayers. best wishes, belly rubs and rayz to you and the pupper! Let us know how it goes! Dottie
Oh Leslie, what a tough call. I wish I had some profound words of wisdom or experience, but with Bridget just recently experiencing back problems, we're still taking it a day at a time. I feel fo you and Bridget and I send tons of rays and scratches under the collar for Loki.
My two cents...I would say no to surgery now. It does heal to a point but it also does mean she is more prone to another episode than she was before. (some doxies are a lot more prone genetically than others, we just don't know if our doxie is or not until or unless they have an episode. That doesn't include trauma...but just from wear and tear and why we need to keep them from jumping from furniture and what not since we have no way of knowing how prone they might be). And if she is prone, then another disc can be just as likely to go so she would have to do another surgery then anyway.
The surgery is major and can be risky and cause problems in and of itself. There is a decent chance that if you are real careful with her (and the seatbelt on the sofa is testiment that you will be LOL) it may never surface again. Patty had three I think, Chris, Hasen and Harry who had one episode and no more. Harry I believe did not undergo surgery. (Patty correct me if I'm wrong!)
When my Jessie had to have surgery, I talked to every vet I could find and the neurologist we went to happened to condone preventative fenestration. It is highly controversial. I went ahead and had Jessie fenestrated, not only the problem disc, but also all of the discs in her cervical and lumbar area (they don't do the thoracic area as it is too hard to get to thru the ribs and there is an extra strong ligament there plus it's not a high risk area like where the thoracic and lumbar meet is). Poor Jessie looked like a frankenstein dawg. The neurologist said you can treat her like a regular dog now, she has no discs that can cause problems. Well lo and behold, a few months later she had another espisode. It was either the discs near her tail that they cannot fenestrate (too many nerves running through there) or it may have been a fenestrated disc, they can never get ALL of the material out. Maybe it did help her not to have worse episodes and he did say it really cut down on her going paralyzed, which she never did, but every 9 months or so for the rest of her life she would go through a painful episode and needed to be crated for 2 weeks.
A friend of mine worked at the neurologist and has been in doxies for many years. She got her doxies fenestrated at an early age prophylactically, because she got a discount working there and figured she wouldn't have to worry so much about the back problems. Maybe it did help...but I do know of at least one of her dogs who she had fenestrated, who went on to have back problems. So it's not a 100% guarantee.
These have just been my experiences though, someone else may have had great results. And of course listen to your vets over someone like me. My feeling though is that it is a lot to put them through and risky for complications for something that might not happen again. And it would suck if it happened at another disc anyway. There is a less invasive fenestration called a laser disc ablation that I think was originated at Oklahoma U? Started with a vowel anyway :) where they don't cut but actually go in and like burn the disc material out or something with a laser. I wrote to them long ago and they said they were the only place doing it at the time and the results were at least as good as with traditional cut 'em open fenestration. They said they were planning to teach other vets how to do this but I don't know where this has progressed to at this point.
You might want to google fenestration and laser disc ablation to read up on the pros and cons. Here is one excerpt.
THE ROLE OF FENESTRATION IN DISC DISEASE
Fenestration, or the ablation of the nucleus pulposus of the intervertebral disc, remains a controversial technique in veterinary medicine. Promoted as a method to prevent or diminish the chance of a disc rupturing, fenestration of cervical and/or thoracolumbar intervertebral discs involves either surgical removal of the intervertebral disc’s nucleus, or ablation of the nucleus with a laser. In this discussion, we will use the terms surgical fenestration and laser disc ablation interchangeably.
Many times, surgical fenestration is performed in conjunction with decompression of a ruptured disc, although the rationale for that remains unclear as the incidence of extruded discs (second incidence) at other levels following decompressive surgery has been reported to be only 2.67% (Brown, et al.) While fenestration alone has been used for dogs with acute, severe neurological signs (paresis, paralysis), fenestration alone runs contrary to the recommendations of most neurologists and surgeons in these situations, where definitive decompressive surgery is suggested.
How effective is fenestration? A recent study of 277 cases in which laser disc ablation was used shows that only 3.4% of the dogs had a recurrence of paresis or paralysis following laser surgery (Bartels, et al). While this recurrence rate is lower than that reported for other disc fenestration techniques, it is higher than the figure reported by Brown for recurrence rates in the 187 cases studied following surgical decompression. Additionally, of interest in the study of dogs undergoing laser disc ablation was that 18.7% of owners reported that > 4 weeks after the ablation procedure, their dogs had clinical signs attributable to orthopedic, soft tissue or neurologic disease. These dogs were not included in the 3.4% recurrent paresis/paralysis group. The true incidence of recurrence, if we do not only measure paresis and paralysis, may be much higher than the 3.4% figure reported, however; that remains unknown at present. Further studies which could include CT examination or MRI or a myelogram are needed to document recurrence of disc symptoms following ablation or fenestration.
So when is it appropriate to recommend fenestration of intervertebral discs? It seems prudent to stick with the requirements which the doctors at OSU have developed to identify appropriate candidates for laser disc ablation. Dogs undergoing either surgical fenestration or laser ablation should be free of neurological signs. They should not have back pain, paresis or paralysis for a period of 2 to 4 weeks before undergoing fenestration or ablation. They should be off of all steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs for the same period of time. Dogs who have had stable neurological abnormalities for the same period of time could be considered as candidates for fenestration or ablation.
Acute cervical or thoracolumbar disc protrusions or herniations resulting in clinical signs of neck or back pain, paresis, or paralysis are not candidates for fenestration or laser disc ablation and should undergo a definitive decompressive surgery as indicated by a myelogram or CT examination of the spinal cord. Fenestration or ablation should be recommended as prophylactic procedures only, and the owners counseled that as with all medical procedures, they are not 100% effective.
Gee, Les, I don't know what to tell you. You bring up some very good points. I have some experience, unfortunately, with doxie back problems, but there was no question Gretchen needed surgery immediately - she was totally down. I guess I was lucky that way. I would do what others have suggested and ask LOTS of vets for their opinions. I'm glad Loki did so well with this episode.
I just read DD's reply and it reminded me about Nugget. Nugget was our mini red LH - our first purebred doxie. When she was about 2 to 4 years old, she had a back episode. Ron and I were too young, dumb and stupid to know what it was. I had gotten home from work and noticed her back hunched and not wanting to jump as she tended to do. I went to bed (d'oh!). In the morning, she didn't look any worse so I went to work. Ron worked nights at the time, so he got home soon after I left. He took her to an emergency vet who gave her a shot of steroids. He didn't tell us anything about doxie backs or warn us not to let her jump. She never had another episode and lived just 20 days short of her 16th birthday.
Now, with Gretchen and Ilsa, we are older and aware. We have limited their jumping (although, admitedly, could do a better job of this) and been more careful with them than we ever were with Nugget. And so, of course, we end up with a full blown disc and paralysis. Go figure!
Anyway, what I really wanted to say was that Nugget only had that one episode even though we did everything wrong. Loki has much smarter parents!
Thanks, everyone, for your informative and balanced views on this subject. There are a lot of positive things going for us in this situation--apart from Loki's general health and age. Our vet suggested accupunture as a treatment option for severe disc probems. He reported he was seeing good results from this reatment. Equally nice was that he didn't push surgery as the first and only "cure". (There is a reason that I have been vetting at this clinic for 35 years!)
Another thing is that my furkids will (gawd I hope by the end of the year) have their own fenced in yard to exercise in. We have let the kids run in the back yard away from traffic, and they do love it. Once I get those *(@!)!&#%$ gates in, I can let them off leash and really let them have fun. They will get lots of non-concussive exersice. (this means of course, inthe long run, better muscle tone and less weight!) Also I have called our handy dude to come and build us a handicapped ramp up the two tiny steps to the side door.
It has been a little bit of work to keep Loki from jumping--and the little booger has really mastered the sideways hop onto the couch, where she stands parallel to the sofa and magically seems to levitate up onto it! The number of actual jumps averages three a day--verses the untold number previously. I think she is a little PO'd that she can't see out the window anymore and bark her head off at the poods across the street--but, oh well.
We are also spending a little more time with her on the floor. Today we napped on the big bed, and I held Loki's leash--so that was a special treat. She is getting used to being carried in and out of the car. So she is willing to allow her dog slaves to conform to her need! :2funny:
So no surgery for now and will continue to be vigilant and hopeful. Because I read this board for MONTHS before I actually got my first doxie, and KNEW this was a potential problem, I was able to make an informed, and calculated risk. Still I did indulge Loki by letting her jump in and out of the bed, and I know I bear part of the responsibility for the problem. She is now and always be my forever furkid!
We'll keep Loki in our prayers! Good luck!