My pack show some behaviour that worries me. In the past, in very rare occasions, it would happen. But recently, in the past 3 weeks, it happened 5 times, and I struggle to get to the root of the problem. Do any of you have any suggestions or ideas what it can be?
For absolutely NO reason at all, Jessie (alpha) will attack Heino. Then the 2 red boys will also join in and team up against Heino. If I try to pull Jessie away from Heino, the red boys will continue to attack him, and at the same time, Heino will go for Jessie. The only way to free Heino, is to grab him behind his neck and pull him out to safety onto the table. As soon as I lower him down, they would continue the attack.
It usally get bloody and Heino gets hurt.
I never yell at them, but the last two times, I closed Jessie in the bathroom for about 30 minutes and put Heino down from the table, and the 3 boys will be just fine together. Immediately, when I open Jessie again, the attack resumes. The whole process is being repeated - she closed again to cool off. But that doesn't seem to cool her off. In the mean time, Heino would whine and clings to me like glue. It just breaks my heart.
This happens only when I'm around. I don't even have to pay attention to them, it just happens. The 3 boys are always fine together. All 4 are all neutered/spayed.
Please, I'm very concerned about this. Can it be the 50% terrier in Jessie that contribute to the problem? Nothing has changed at my house that can upset them. Any thoughts on this, anyone?
I wait now for Karin, re Dog whisperer, not being condisending I have watched few now and he hits it on the nail. YOU have to be ALPHA, raising your voice and actions is what sets the pace for the rest and Jessie has to know that. sounds like you let Jessie dictate..........Karen where are you.....I would say get Jessie to tow the line and all the rest will follow, by that I think she does what you tell her to do and when you say it not in her time.
roberta
Hey Roberta!
Good to see you!
I believe I AM the alpha, I'm always firm and strong when something is brewing between them, and they'll settle down immediately. But this is something totally different - how do I get "through" to Jessie without being harsh on her, she seems to "cut out" in her brain and acts vicious :thinik: Yikes, where is Karen?
I hope Karen can help you. I have no answers at all for this one. I remember when you posted about it happening before. I looked at yesterday's postings and Karen showed up around 8:30 a.m. Hopefully she will be around soon....
I'm here, I'm here!! Sorry, I had to get three hours sleep and use the loo . . .
I just went through a similar phase with Dr. Leaky. He would start a low throated growl followed by an attack on Merlin.
If I were Cesar, I would immediately interrupt any signs of agression and make the agressor assume a submissive posture lying flat on the floor. Use your hands like a prong collar, get Jessie prone on her side and hold her firmly but gently, until she lays relaxed in a "calm submissive" mode. Do it right in front of the boys. You assert your alpha position.
Whenever I want to interrupt agression or agressive barking, I say, "Hey, hey, hey" to the dogs. I sometimes step towards the ofending dog to sort of invade his space.
Remember if you are alpha, the rest of the pack's standing really doesn't matter - they're all beta. Switch around who eats first, or who goes through the door first.
Karen, the Dog Whisperer's best friend :heart:
Pack situation someone is trying to be pack leader also could be they are trying to change ranking with in the pack I do not think they think you are the leader because the pack leader will not allow fighting in the pack to the point of drawing blood.The reason the leader would not allow it is because a hurt pack member cannot hunt. The one getting picked on might do better in a new home where it is the only dog.Also I would be doing the NILF training maybe keep the dog starting the fighting on a leash tied to you at all times or the dog getting picked on tied to you at all times for awhile til you get this resolved.The time outs must not be working since they are still doing it must up the anti on your corrections somehow split them up only let two loose at a time while the others are crated the change them out. The dog that is being picked on looks to you to keep him safe you are going to have to do something to keep him safe.Hope some one can come up with a resolution for this for you.Good Luck hope I did not ofend you.
Papbouv
Thank you guys for you advice - I'll keep you posted
in addition to the other commets I would get Heino vetted. Maybe the other pack members are picking up on some medical problem that is caussing them to be more agressive? Did I read that somewhere or am I just making it up? can't remember.
Keep us posted
My thought was to get Jessie vetted. But that suggestion depends partly on her age. The first bulldog we had, Jeb, would suddenly go into an aggressive mode, but his would be with people. It started out being Randy and would be random and not very often. Randy would come into the house and suddenly Jeb would go after him as if he were a stranger breaking in. It was like you were saying Jessie would be-as if he were in a different state of mind and almost unaware of what he was doing. After a few seconds or a minute of this we could calm him down and he would be fine, sometimes for weeks or months. He wasn't much for strangers anyway, but it was so odd that he would only do this with Randy, who he loved most out of the family. At the time he was about 7 and a half, which is starting to get old for a large bulldog. After about a year, the attacks became more frequent. Then one day I had let Kendall-angel and Jeb-angel outside and when I went out to get them, Jeb started to go after me. I quickly grabbed Kendall and got away from him, taking her inside. Knowing that Jeb would usually calm right down, I went back outside. He was still a little agitated, but was okay for me to get close to. When I knew he was safe, I let him in the house. At that time, he suddenly turned on Kendall. I grabbed her and then he was going to go for both of us. I left him in our bedroom and called Randy. We already knew, from the vet's diagnosis, that Jeb had what he called doggy dementia. He said that he would occasionally not recognize us and that was the reason he would attack us as if we were strangers. We could see the confusion in his face. The day he went for me was the day we made the hardest decision ever-the one to send him to the bridge. We knew we would have to do it eventually and the chance was increasing that he would eventually attack Meghan. The vet had told us he would continue to get worse and we would know when to let him go, but it was still hard.
My thought when I read about Jessie and her attacks getting more frequent was the dementia. Because I know that Jeb seemed to focus on Randy for so long and no one else, her attacking Heino sounding familiar. That was why I was wondering how old she was. I do know that I will never forget the look in Jeb's face when this was happening and that he seemed to have no idea he was being this way. It was like a split-personality dog.
I haven't read through everyone's replies but I have friends who have gone (and are going) through this with their dogs, mostly my obedience training buddies. I know there are different methods but if it were me, Jessie (or whatever dog was in that position) would be upside down with me in her face so fast....in a pack, the alpha would do the same if one below the alpha was trying to dominate any of the pack, that one would be upside down to the alpha with alpha snarling and gnashing. Not that you should gnash...but I'd be doing enough snarling (and keep increasing the intensity until you get through to her) to snap her back to reality and clearly lets her know it's not acceptable. I would not let her up frmo the upside down position until she settles. Once you have let her up (which is her "reward" for calming down), no more scolding, you need to be calm yourself. She has to realize that the consequences for her actions are more significant that what she gets from attacking Heino. If Jessie does not back down with you just commanding her to stop then she does not see you truly as alpha, at least not in all situations.
Putting Jessie in the bathroom while still riled up is not good because she is working herself up in there waiting to get back to Heino. So when you open the door things will escalate again. Like a dog behind a fence who gets frustrated over seeing another dog outside the fence, if they get a chance to get out they will really try to fight. I visited a wolf sanctuary once that would take one wolf out at a time to let me photograph and every time they returned that wolf to the pack, the alpha would attack it and the rest of the pack would follow.
I would keep them separated when you are not home. Even if it has not happened yet, it easily could and Heino would have no way out. I may have mentioned a woman I know who has wirehaired doxies and schiperkees. The two wirehaired doxies have now killed two of her schiperkees and badly injured a third. I am furious with her as after the first incident, she should have taken steps to never let this happen again...her solution has been to blame the "stupid dachshunds" and has sold them. It appeared one was the worst, and the other would jump in to help when the first one started things. They got along fine for a years whent this started, although they had some similar tussles to yours when she was home. Similar story with a friend with goldens, they'd be fine most of the time then out of nowhere they would have a huge fight. It happened once when she was gone and they both, being the same size and only 2 of them, were torn up really badly. You will never be able to fix this problem 100% all you can do is get as much control of it while you are there and be sure they aren't together when you aren't home.
That's my 2 cents, if this were me I'd leave no doubt in the aggressors mind that this is not going to happen again. My heart just breaks for Heino and you. It has to be terrifying for both of you and isn't he quite a bit smaller than Jessie?
Hey guys!
Thank you for all your input. We had a holiday yesterday and we had quite some action! This is what happend:
Wednesday night, when it happende, and I immediately got onto Jessie and forced her down on the ground, holding her down around her neck with my hands, using one knee to keep the rest of the body down. She growled and I just tighten my hands a bit, and said NO! NO! in a strong voice. The red boys were watching as I did this. Heino fled outside. I felt like ages before she submitted and started to relax. I was very strong on her, but as she relaxed, I also became more smooth and relaxed my hold on her. She laid her head down and completely relaxed and I lift my knee up from her hind quarters and started to stroke her softly and spoke nicely to her. Then I let her up. She was a totally diffent dog. However, about 2 hours later it happened again and I did the same thing again. We could sleep in peace for the night.
In the morning it happened again, and this time it was voilent. As I grabbed her collar and forced her down, she turned on me and BIT me. I spanked her once through the snout with a hard NO! Maybe that was not the right thing, I felt SO bad! I got her to submit and repeated the whole process again of holding her down. She was growling and shivvering but eventually she calmed down. The rest of the day went smoothly, Jessie was much more calm and she followed me like a shadow, many times standing up to my legs, like if she's asking for my approval. The pack are much more relaxed and Heino even initiated some play with Jessie!
Geesh, it's working, but will she try to get the upper hand a few times more? And if she turns on me again, what am I to do?
You are doing good Lauri!!!
But it does sound like the incidences are getting more frequent and violent? Honestly...if it were me I'd keep them separated unless I was physically holding on to one of them. It isn't fair to little Heino, I can only imagine how terrified he gets to be attacked and it's happened quite a few times in the last few weeks. I think you can make it better like you are but I really don't think you can ever be able to trust Jessie 100% not to attack Heino. It's odd isn't it that this happened so late on, was there any hint of this when they were younger? Does Heino ever act like he wants to be alpha? What is the pecking order below Jessie?
You have no reason to feel bad about scolding her, you have to keep Heino safe #1 and this is the only way you can tell Jessie it is not acceptable to do that. You did well! Do you think Jessie realized she was biting you? If so, I would nail her big time, not damage her of course but if my dog were to bite me I would leave no doubt in their mind that is not going to happen a second time. And if it did happen a second time, I would escalate the scolding. There are only two times I would get after my own dog that way, if they were doing something that could hurt themselves or hurt someone else. Hallie would never try to hurt another human or dog but in our first year or two, there were times she jumped off the bed on her own for instance, she had never seen mommy come unglued like that. I was not angry I was totally in control but I knew I had to impress upon her she could NOT do that. And she never does now I trust her 100% not to jump off the bed. I didn't get that intense with her until I knew she understood it was wrong, that would not have been fair. I have not scolded her like that (or at all really) in years now, and she has no fear of me because she trusts me and understood why she was being corrected before. Point being, Jessie will not fear you if this is done fairly and clearly so she has no confusion as to why she is being corrected so sternly.
Good for you for not giving up and holding her down until she relented. You would have lost a lot of ground if you had let her up prematurely. It worries me though that this happened 3 times in what, 24 hours? If she turns on you again, I would do just what you did, she is following you around because she thought she was your alpha, now she's realizing she's not. Keep us posted on how things go.
Teresa I just read your post what a heartbreaking thing to have to do but you had no choice. How old was Jeb at the time?
Good Laurie! Good Girl!!
Seriously, I think you did a good job! The only criticism I might have is that you don't want to turn it into a reward by stroking her and speaking nicely. If you've ever watched your alpha being in charge of the pack, you notice that they reign with a kind of aloof attitude. So many people "reward" a dog's neurotic behavior with praise and kindness at the moment, rather than acting as the in-charge alpha and saving the cuddling or petting for later.
As for the biting, I agree with Hallie. It sounds like she was "in the zone" and you got bit because you were in the group. Did she bite you personally? Probably not. Did she bite the alpha pack member who stepped in to restore calm and take her down? Yup. But don't take it as an attack on you. It's part of the price for dealing with pack agression.
Be sure to use opportunities to further your position. I love using the Patricia McConnell method of letting everyone sit at the door and waiting until they are released one at a time, by name, to go through. It started out as a crazy madhouse ("I'm first!" "I"'M closer, I get to go!" "GET OUTTA MY WAY." "QUIT weaseling underneath, Guinness!" "Boys, Boys, BOYS!!!"") but weeks later, IT WORKS!! Use the command "wait" and step in between the door and the doxies. Get them to wait until they are called by name and released ("Heino, O.K. Jessie, O.K." etc. )
As much as I love snuggling and playing and belly rubs and cuddling, there is no better feeling than getting cooperation from your herd of dachshunds. It's not like herding cats! (Sorry, Mr. Tucker.)
Karen :heart:
"Whoever's rubbin' Auntie Karen's belly better quit it. She's gettin' weird ideas." :thinik:
"Honestly, Roscoe, how many bricks of a load are YOU shy??? Geez!" :rolleyes:
The only problem with a Alfa roll over is that is what they did years ago some now think it is not a proper correction and can some times escalate more aggression ??? Is their a Dog Behaviorist in your area you could get some more ideas from have you talked to your vet wondering if something is wrong with the dog that is getting attacked????Some think Cesar is too old fashioned is some areas may cause more problem so it is very hard to figure out what to do. I still think the NILF training is the way to go,separating them allow only 2 at a time to run loose then switch them out.Two loose together is not a pack add one more its a pack situation know for sure the Alfa roll over can be very,very dangerous if working with a large dog Doxies not so much you can control them better.
Good Luck
Papbouv
Have you went to the Library and looked for books covering the subject of more than one dog maybe some ideas there also.
I've been thinking of this all night, and I really really think you should keep them separated until things are calmer, except for when you are physically holding one of them. I feel so bad for little Heino. Anyone who has seen me around Hallie knows how gentle and caring and careful I am and that I never ever lose my temper with her, I have never lost my temper with any dog. But if she were the type who would try to bite or be aggressive to me or anyone else, she would think she was experiencing her last few minutes on earth. I would not tolerate that under any terms, (again of course not beating on her but holding her down and REALLY getting into her face). It would be done with total control, not reaction from temper, and not go on and on but enough to make no doubt in her mind. Then when she submitted and relaxed I'd let her up and calmly go about my day, no praising or I'm sorry or don't you ever do that again, just quietly go back to what you were doing as if nothing happened. If it happened again, she would think she was experiencing her last few SECONDS on earth rather than minutes. Every dog has a point where the punishment finally means more to them than what they are doing. It is much better to do this at this level a few times and be over with it than to be gentler with them and have it go on forever. This is a lot different than say, beating a dog for barking or kicking a dog for peeing on the floor. That is abuse. This is not.
I used to work with a trainer who specialized in behavior problems of this kind. She had good success. And once you do get on them enough that they know you mean it, it also makes it easier if you have to do it again as you have already established the respect with them. I have only seen this not work once, my neighbors got a lab mix pup from the shelter where he had been turned in because the owner said he was aggressive. He was so cute and the neighbor figured it was the owners fault or misconception. She called me right after she got him because if he were to do something like put his paws up on the counter and she tried to push him off, he would challenge her. I went over and he was very friendly with me until I asked him to sit, then he was all teeth. I immediately flipped him over and held him down and got in his face but he never backed down, we were at it for at least 15 min, he was stiff as a board with his front paws around my arms and every tooth bared and a wild look in his eye. He wasn't afraid, he was MAD. Unlike Jessie, his wiring was messed up and they did have to put him down. But that was the only time I have seen a dog that did not submit.
Might you have a good behaviorist in your area that could come and help walk you through this? There are many methods and theories out there on the best way to handle any behavioral or training problem and it would help to have someone to turn to that is right there if a variable pops up. In the meantime though you need to keep Heino from being attacked again, I'm so sorry you are going through this I know how much you love the furbutts and it has to be heartbreaking to see these fights.
I'd be curious to know if Jessie ever showed any aggression to Heino or the others at all before that first attack when you posted before. Did it start to happen suddenly? There are a lot of questions to be answered to really understand what is going on with the pack.
I'm very proud of you Laurie for jumping right on this and being able to stay on Jessie until she relented. Is Heino still doing okay?
I picked up one of Patricia McConnell's books from the Library this week, but haven't started reading it yet.
Dee Dee- Jeb was about 9 1/2 when we finally sent him to the bridge. For a 60 lb English Bulldog, that is quite old. Randy still hasn't quite gotten having to make that decision with Jeb, but Molly has helped him considerably. I'll have to find one of the pictures I have of Jeb-angel and Kendall-angel and post it soon. They were great friends, and once again, a perfect Mutt and Jeff type pair.
Quote from: Dee Dee and Hallie on August 10, 2007, 12:06:51 PMI'd be curious to know if Jessie ever showed any aggression to Heino or the others at all before that first attack when you posted before. Did it start to happen suddenly? There are a lot of questions to be answered to really understand what is going on with the pack.
May be time to get Jessie vetted. Maybe this is some type of seizure disorder like Springer Rage Syndrome. Any neuro symptoms at all?
Wonder if Jessie may have low thyrod have heard it can cause aggression in dogs also may want to rule out a brain tumor those can also cause aggression in dogs. Please be careful where your face is if you do the Alfa roll again since you were bitten last time you did that. I know my Bouvier Breeder used a cattle prod to break up fights between 2 intact male Bouvier's but glad Doxie's are not big like Bouvier's. They say the best way to break up a fight is if there are two people grab a tail and then back legs wheel barrow them away from each other then keep separate.
Papbouv
Get both Vet checked, after living with a hyothyroid for 16 years, agression was never a problem, she was Alpha, but aggression was not what got her aposition it was
demeanor.
Are they all neautered?
Who is the oldest and how old is heino that all plays into the equation as sometimes the pack decides the oldest has to go......... attacks to make them leave.......
With Emma we used the head to the floor tactic and it did work, but we had just the two........ and we always had to make sure we were Alpha .
We are all guessing at a distance find some professonal help.
Roberta
Thank you for all your info and input. All 4 dogs are neutered. Jessie did show aggression towards Heino before once or twice, but it was a once-off thing.
I had to do the submission thing again twice over the weekend, but it was very mild - she did'nt really attack, she just growled and kinda grabbed Heino and I immediately got onto her. I got to think she's "trying" me! These 2 dogs are actually the best of friends, they always play and stick together. Now, after these incidents, Jessie is aloof towards Heino, but he still wants to be her best friend. Jessie actually came and curl up in my arm last night, something she have'nt done in years! She was always laying by the window, guarding for critters.
It's almost time for their annual check-up and shots anyway - I'll get them both checked out.
Overall, the pack are much more relaxed and Jessie sticks to me like glue. The red boys ain't really part of this saga, it's interesting how they keep themselves apart from it.
Can any of you suggest a good book - I'm going to buy "The Dog Listener" by Jan Fennel. Since the forword is by Monty Roberts, I figured it can only be good. Any other suggestions?