This evening there was an incident at our house with Gretchen and Elf. Elf was playing quietly when she saw Gretchen and leaned over to pet and kiss Gretch on the back/head as she usually does. David was right there with them so no one thought anything of stopping Elf. Well, this evening as Elf stood up Gretchen turned and bit her lip drawing blood. There was no reason for it as Gretchen wasn't being touched and hadn't been harmed in anyway. Elf was very gentle when giving the pets. Gretchen even snapped at David when he pushed her away (gently and firmly - not roughly or anything!) from Elf to see if she was hurt.
I honestly don't know why this happened since there was no quick movements, Elf hadn't hurt Gretchen or even been slightly rough with her, and it was just us in a normal situation. David was ready to get rid of Gretchen because of it, but doesn't want her to go to someone who would mistreat her or where she could hurt another person. Gretchen is a special case. We are going to keep her, but I think we will take her to the vet with Cajsa to see what our options are for helping her. PTS is NOT an option, but maybe behavioural treatments or meds are? She is really a sweet dog, but she was abused and reacts with a snap out of fear. She is not trustworthy around most people as a result. Chances are that she won't hurt a person, but then if she feels trapped or scared she will bite and snap to get away.
Today we had company over and Elf got bit on the shoulder leaving teeth marks and a bruise because of Gretchen with us right there. That time Elf did scare Gretch by coming up behind her though. We just seperated them and didn't scold Gretch, just put her in her bed behind the gate while things settled down. (She was able to see us, and we spoke to her so she wasn't completely shut away.)
I'm heart broken sitting here thinking about ways to help her get past at least some of her issues. Her issues are with women, mostly me to be honest, but now she has gotten Elf in it and I can't have her snapping like that. She loves people, but is easily scared in some situations (and we can't always tell when that will be). Anyone have any advice?
April,
Sounds like Gretchen is a fear biter... you are right in seeking out a professional trainer they will be able to teach you how to deal with these situations and help her to overcome the problem make sure you find a trainer that ONLY uses positive re-enforcement techniques! There are lots of good links on "canine fear aggression" if you do a google search ... for starters you can check out this one
http://www.pethelp.net/aggdog.html
I would keep Gretchen away from your baby until you can get a handle on this ... better to be safe than sorry.
Good Luck :xfinger:
Jen & the Crew
We will be calling the vet tomorrow to see about an appointment for both Cajsa and Gretchen. Cajsa is due for a checkup anyway, so we could do it all at once. Elf is always supervised when the dogs are near her and will be watched even closer from now on. I don't want to teach her to be afraid of dogs when she loves them so much. We have been teaching her to be gentle with them since she was a baby. She does "easy touches" immediately and she really is more gentle than any other preschool child I've seen. I realize it's a two way thing, but Gretch really does have some fear/anxiety issues and they need to be resolved so she can be a happy dog and we can be a happy, safe family.
Oh April - how scary. Is Elf doing ok now? Just not knowing how Gretchen is going to react from time to time is scary. Bless you for wanting to do what will help her and your family. Please let us know what the vet recommends. I am sure working with a behaviorist will help. You might want to touch base with Terri - and discuss with her what they have done for and with Toby and his agression. I know they had his canine teeth removed.
Hang in there and keep us updated please!
Smoochies to Elf for her booboo and to Gretchen and Cajsa too.
April,
That sort of unanticipated and unprovoked aggression is absolutely horrifying. As you know we went through this with Toby and finally ended up having his four canine teeth removed. The back teeth are for chewing and the front are for nibbling and picking things up. The canines serve only one purpose, to hold and rip prey. After meeting with both the animal behaviorist and our vet we determined that removing them was the only completely safe thing to do. Because we are unable to know what triggers his aggression we can't really fix it. The only other option was to crate him when anyone was around and I simply did not see that as a good solution for him. When Toby had an episode it was as if he were a different dog. They only lasted for a minute (probably less) but a lot of damage can be done in that time. After each episode he would be confused as to what was happening around him. Most probably it was fear and most likely related to the abuse that he suffered in his previous life. Removing the teeth is NOT something that vets do routinely. You would have to discuss it with your vet and decide it would be the best thing for Gretchen and for your family.
I will tell you that Toby is a much happier little guy now. He has not had a single aggresive episode since the removal of the teeth. With the help of the behaviorist I have learned to look for signs that he is stressed out .(lots of people being around stress him and loud noises as well). He starts to shake a little bit and his tail goes straight out. When this happens I take him to another room and I use the words "quiet room" many many times. I sit with him on the floor and just tell him over and over that he is safe in his quiet room. After about ten minutes he is usually ready to rejoin the group. When I bring him back into the room with the people I immediately give him a "good boy" treat. He then runs off with Buelah and Oscy. Probably to brag about the treat that he got! LOL.....
Also, he still can nip with his front teeth. Toby is a very very enthusiastic kisser and sometimes gets a bit carried away. We are currently working on the "no nip" command and he seems to be getting it. The good thing is that the front teeth can not do any damage. It pinches but doesn't tear or puncture the skin.
I guess my suggestion to you would be to talk to a behaviorist and your vet and do whatever works for your family and for Gretchen. It's really tough to deal with. I'm here if you want to talk. Please feel free to email as well. If there is anything I can do, I certainly will.
How AWFUL. What difficult decisions you have. Surely, you do not want Elf to become fearful of her low-to-the-grounds furry friends. I hope that she will bounce back and want to be friends with her doggy sisters again. As for Gretchie. Hmmmm. That's hard. Perhaps a Behavioralist can help her. PTS is NOT warranted at all. The other thing I was thinking......don't mind me if it is out of the question.....that perhaps Gretchen would be happier in a quieter adult household. Perhaps a friend or relative who has a big heart and love for the long dog would give her the slow moving adult love she may be happier with. As I said, just a suggestion. I wish your family the best. A kiss for ELF and snuggles to Gretchen.
Terri sounds like she had some really good ideas and we are really praying that something will work out for you and that Elf won't end up afraid of the pups.
Merion & the ZZ's
Last night we took the girls to the dog park. Cajsa walked close to a half mile on the leash (we didn't let her off leash around the other dogs) and was pretty tired, but pleasantly so. Gretchen ran and played and was exhausted but happier. She got to play and spend her extra energy so she laid quietly on David's lap last night - even sharing with Elf. Elf leaned over after a few minutes and patted Gretch and Gretch gave her hand kisses. So I think they have made up with each other. I'm sure that part of it was because Gretchen didn't have so much pent up energy and Elf was being very cautious. Even so, for the time being we are going to take Gretchen daily or at least every other day to the park and let her run since she loves it so much. That seemed to make a huge difference in her behaviour last night and today.
We have an appointment with the vet on Wednesday morning so I'm hoping to have a good (and painfree!) outcome for us.