A friends experience with raw food

[Dee Dee and Hallie]

I hesitate to post this because discussing what to feed is sometimes like discussing religion  :) but I thought it was important to post. I fed raw for a while myself, and have some in the freezer right now that I have been giving Hallie as treats. But one of my closest friends here right now is going through a nightmare with her 14 month old golden retriever. For a couple of months now, he has been experiencing severe spine and neck pain, he holds his head high and his head twitches, he's in such pain he can't lie down and they are both totally exhausted. She has put several thousand dollars into trying to diagnose him and put him through some awful tests. They never could figure it out, guessed things like autoimmune disease, tick born disease, etc. Finally this morning, the neurologist has narrowed it down to toxoplasmosis from raw food. She has been feeding raw food, it's a commercial brand and she was always neurotically careful about handling it properly. At this point they have him on mega antibiotics and pred to help control the pain, plus a bunch of other meds. They are not sure if he can be saved or not, it depends on how far it has progressed, even though she caught it at the very first signs. Raw does good too, I wouldn't try to talk anyone out of feeding it if they really beleived in it, but I just wanted to share my friends story. I will be throwing all of our raw out. But I do know people who have fed it for years now with no problems. The risk isn't worth it for us. The neurologist also said he has seen several other cases of this from raw food in his practice. That, along with all these new dog diseases showing up, has me and Hallie hiding under the bed!  :crazyeyes: It's a scary world out there!

[PattyInAK]

Oh, how awful.  I never thought that feeding raw food to my dogs was a good idea.  They get their Purina One in the morning, and their rice/veggie/hamburger cooked mixture at night.  All six of the doxies I have owned have done well on this routine. 
I hope your friends' Golden pulls through, he's so young. 

[TerriL]

Okay, I'm going to sound pretty ignorant here but just exactly does raw food consist of?  Like raw meat or something? 

[Dee Dee and Hallie]

Patty, this is my friend Trish, did you get to meet her when you were here? She is the nicest person. She is really distraught over this but at least now they know what it is, they didn't know what they were dealing with til now. I am curious about your hamburger rice mixture, what was the reason you started feeding that? I have always wondered why we can't cook for our dogs, with a variety of foods to cover all the nutrients. That's how we eat why can't we do that for our dogs. I would actually cook for Hallie LOL and do my best not to fill the house with smoke and freak her out.  I have tried to research why we don't cook and feed our dogs a wider variety of foods (maybe there is a good reason??) but never found anything on it. I asked my vet about feeding raw or cooking and her thoughts were that humans used to live on raw too but now we don't, and that wild dogs and wolves eat raw but they also get diseaes and diarrhea and worms and other things from it. They can do better than domestic dogs on raw because of natural selection, the weaker ones who can't handle it die off and just the stronger ones survive to breed. Of course our domestic dogs are not nearly that strong genetically because man steps in. BUT I do know dogs who have done very well on raw, I don't mean to be bashing a whole feeding system. I would just need oxygen at the thought of what might happen so we'll stick with cooked or canned or kibble LOL.

TerriL, in the last few years there has been a lot of people who have started to feed their dogs raw food. I think it was started by Dr. Billinghurst? Not sure about that, but it was coined BARF which stands for Bones And Raw Food. It has raw meat, chicken, turkey, etc along with raw vegatables, fruit, etc. The idea being to mimic what the dog would be eating if he lived in the wild, and thinking this is the optimum diet for health for them. I do agree that some of the commercial foods are too over processed and have too much junk in them. But there are plenty out there now that have are naturally preserved and don't have all the bad grains and fillers that used to be more common. I feed canned for breakfast and half of dinner, as all I have read on that is a good quality canned food is now not the junk food it used to be, but is even better than kibble because it is more digestible and less processed. I feed eagle pack holistic select canned, it has good stuff in it. It is also a myth that canned cause more teeth problems, any food, whether hard or soft, will cause plaque on their teeth, unless you keep them brushed. Just like with us, if we only ate cereal all the time we'd still get plaque. I do make sure Hallie has bully sticks and crunchy kibble at dinner so she can get some more vigorous chewing in. And I give her several supplements and vitamins. But I digress...LOL. There are also a lot of different prepared raw diets you can buy for dogs, in frozen patties or cubes or trays. That way you dont' have to buy the stuff and fix it yourself (which I could never stomach). I fed Hallie cubes for a while.

Just like with the new 3 year vaccination protocol (Hallie is getting hers for the first time in 4 years, tomorrow and I'm TERRIFIED), each dog is different and no one knows for sure what the best way to go with that and with feeding is so we just have to gather as much information that is available out there on these things and then try and decide what is the best thing to do for our own kids. It's tough!

[PattyInAK]

DD, I don't think I met Trish when I was down at your place.
I started feeding the hamburger and rice mixture because I could crush the dogs' vitamin C and mix it in.  That way they got the WHOLE tablet in their system instead of me finding it on the floor later on.  They have no trouble getting the vitamin E gelcap down whole.

My recipe --
1 lb. hamburger, browned, drained and rinsed well with HOT water.  Return to pot, add 4-1/2 cups water (or a mix of water and beef broth) and one 12 oz. bag frozen peas and carrots.  Bring to a rolling boil.  Add 4 cups brown or white rice.  Stir to mix.  Put lid on pot and remove from heat.  Let sit for 20 minutes.  Then package serving portions in zip-loc sandwich bags and freeze.  At dinner time, take a package from the freezer and zap in the microwave.  Let cool about three minutes before giving it to your doxie.

[Dee Dee and Hallie]

What a good idea Patty and I'll bet the LOVE that! Heck I'd love it. You could share your meals with your dog how cool is that. I'm writing this down thanks!

[Dianne]

I am sorry to hear that she is going through such difficult times.  I am not surprised that raw food is the culprit.  Remember that man stopped eating raw meat as soon as he had fire!

Cocoa had e-coli last year from a bone with raw marrow. You just don't know what "bugs" are in the meat these days. 

Because of high fat content and the doglets not being willing to eat "diet" dog food, I am now making my own.  Ground meat, rice and vegetables get cooked once a week.  Doesn't take long and I know what they are getting.  No more animal bones unless I've boiled them first to kill the bacteria. 

It's more work; but, I do most of it when I'm already cooking dinner for the humans.  So, not so bad.

Tell her good luck! 

[TerriL]

Thanks for the information. I guess I must be a little bit out of touch but honestly, I don't think I would feel comfortable giving them raw meat. 
I cook a similar mixture for mine three as well.  They love it!  I alternate the kinds of veggies that I put in for some variety. 
I also make an "ice cream" treat for them using plain yogurt and chicken broth.  I mix it together and put it in ice cube trays to freeze.  It is Buelah's favorite!  Oscy gets ice headaches because he is a piggy and eats to fast.  Mr. Toby is just starting to learn to enjoy and not inhale his treats!  Since he started feeling better I can't seem to feed him fast enough!   

[dackel]

Hansy has gotten into raw meat before, but hasn't had too many problems..  We were giving him this food once that was like real hamburger and cheese... it was called "Moist and Meaty" or something, and he got super bloated. We took him to the vet and they said that dog food was gumming up his intestines. I'm really careful about the dog food since I've talked about diet with my vet. I've heard some has all kinds of nasty stuff in it cysts, feet, roadkill blech... There probably are dogs that have a raw food diet, but the thing is is just like us, they don't have immunities built up against them if they don't eat it all the time, so they probably can't automatically fight off things e-coli, etc. Hansy seems to digest people food okie. We sometimes give him meat and veggies leftovers for dinner and such, but I'm probably going to keep him on a stricter kibble only diet (Royal Canin) because he's getting a little too tubby.

[David C.]

I often wondered how much we can truly change by diet.   For instance, Max has lived his entire life virtually on dry food (although we "cheat" now and wet down his food so it's easier to chew) and he is steadily closing in on his 17th birthday.   Rudy, who ate the identical diet, passed before his 13th.

Then there was the case of Scallywag.  She was a mixed dobie who led a fairly hard life.   She got into just about anything and was usually fed Purina Dog Chow.   She lived to 14 -- average for a dachshie, but certainly a very long life for a dog her size.

I'm inclined to believe that if a dog is properly taken care of (weight kept in the normal range and kept up to date on shots), that the diet really doesn't matter. I think the genetic makeup is a bigger factor on how long our puppers are going to be around than what they eat.

Rays to Golden.  No 14 month pupper should be in this kind of predicament.  I hope that he gets past this episode and lives for at least another 14 years. 

[Bratpak and Lauri]

I feed my kidz raw food only.  NOT raw pet food or pet mince!!! But human mince or beef, raw baby carrots, broccoli, cultiflower, green beans, peas and beetroot.  All fresh from the market.  I keep all the veggies in my refrigerator and cut pieces into their meat at night.  They get 1 fried egg and liver once a week as well.  They do very well on it and are healty with shiny coats and fresh breaths.

[Dee Dee and Hallie]

I agree with you David, "way back when"....we had our doxie Sam as I was growing up. We fed him those disgusting gainsburgers all his life, loaded with preservatives and artificial coloring. We also, being ignorant, encouraged him to leap off the back of the couch and into our laps all the time! He lived to be 17 with virtually no health problems. Genetics do govern most things, I think Sam did well becasue of this genetics and despite what we fed him, by feeding the best diet we can we just give them the ammunition to do the best they can with their genetic hand theyve been dealt.

I think that's great Lauri, I know a lot of people who feed raw and have for a long time and their dogs have done great. The best thing is to get it yourself as you say, then you know how it's been handled and prepared. I'm such a disaster in the kitchen I'd be a nervous wreck thinking I did something wrong or let it sit out too long LOL. The last two times I turned the big oven on and tried to cook I filled the house with smoke and Hallie went out and wouldn't come back in LOL!

[Barb]

dd - how is your friends Golden doing?  Better I sure hope!!!

I remember feeding our dogs Alpo (ugh !) when we were growing up and sneaking them table scraps all the time.  They all lived long lives.......and also - giving them steak bones.....cooked and cleaned off by us first.......I never rememeber anyone having any problems.

[Dee Dee and Hallie]

Dogs did often seem to live longer and healthier back then didn't they. My theory is that puppy millers and backyard breeders who breed just to breed, and to make money and because their dog is cute, etc, without studying the lines with a fine tooth comb and pairing only the dogs that are healthy and sound and whose ancestors are too and who don't have the same kind of problems on each side, etc, is hitting our dogs hard now genetically and we are seeing these problems so rampant. There are a lot of good breeders out there doing the things that need to be done to ensure our breed will be sound and healthy but they are so outnumbered by those who don't. Man has messed with dog genes so much to make them so far from what nature intended, that it is our responsibility to be super careful with how we breed. OK off my soapbox now. 

Cooler is not showing any improvement at this point. He does have times of the day when he almost seems normal and it's so sad because you can tell how much he wants to play and go for a walk but then the pain hits him again and he can't do anything. He is a really active dog normally. The upside though is he's not worse either so hopefully the meds will kick in soon and he can get over this.

[Shumard4]

Patty thanks for the recipe. I have a foster that has allergies to everything and I wonder if this would work for him. I will be checking his list and passing this on to his new momma. I know she plans on cooking for him.

[David C.]

I have a dachshund book that was printed in 1957.   It indicates that 12 years is considered the average life of a dachsie.   Based on my observations, I think that 14 years and change seems to be the average lifespan for a dachshund these days.   I think that both the quality and availability of veterinary care has improved and that has led to longer lifespans.   Many dachsies that underwent and recovered from back surgeries today would have likely been put down for these same problems 20 or 30 years ago.

[hildiesmom]

I read these things and it simply drives me crazy... How in the *world* does the vet know it was toxo from the raw food and *not* from eating cat poop out in the yard!

Are they *sure* it's toxo and not tick disease??? If she was feeding food from the human food stream, I'd be worried as heck that she found toxo. It's almost unheard of, at this point (other than scare tactics) due to the rigid inspections for meat.

As for the other poster, *man* may have stopped eating raw food after the advent of fire, but wolves sure as heck didn't.

I've fed 5 dogs raw for at least 3 years... I certainly respect everyone to choose to feed the way they *want* to, but honestly, feeding raw isn't going to kill them. It was the turnaround for my "allergy girl" and the same dog, when diagnosed with diabetes (believe it or not, she was eating a premium kibble at the time) was completely withdrawn from insulin primarily due to a raw diet... I *can't* feed scrip foods--she's allergic to them.

[Dottiesdoxies]

Certianly wolves eat raw food and have for centuries on end, a dog is a scavenger and certianly can handle bacteria much better than humans do, but raw meat in the human food chain is not safe by any means!  Toxoplasmosis (not sure of spelling) can be caught by humans cleaning a cat box, so I'm sure a dog eating cat poop could get it that way easily!  But I remember when I was pregant with my daughter 10 years ago, the scare from toxo was heightened.  I'd not heard of it when I had my sons, but with my daughter, my doctor told me do not clean the litter box and to cook meats all the way through as you can contract toxo from eating undercooked or raw human meat!  There is a high risk of salmanilla (not spelled right) as well.  Resteraunts in Maryland are not allowed to sell rare or med. rare steak and hamburger, because of the risk of bacteria born illness!   How many times do we see on TV the risk of using any surface and to wash everything including our hands after handling raw meat!  Many people get very sick and die every year from food born bacteria from raw meats!   I became very ill from salmanilla from undercooked hamburger!  Yes, I even brought a sample of the meat in for testing!  My mother is now gone, but 20 years ago she got bottulism from undercooked turkey and was in the hospital in intensive care for 2 weeks!  NO, our human food is not safe by any stretch of the imagination in today's world!   My  vet even told me that feeding my cat or dog raw meats (human) and cleaning their littler box or handling their dog poop could allow you to get toxo from your pet, I had the kitty tested and the dogs for toxo when I was pregant with my daughter to make sure they did not have it or carry it, as a cat can carry it and never get sick!   Raw chicken, raw pork, raw hamburger meat and undercooked eggs are really dangerous, you are tempting fate if you don't cook meat throughly!   Many people swear by feeding raw to their pets, I'd be too scared to do it and I cook meats to at least 180 degrees to make sure all bacteria is killed by the high temps!  I have Ruhmotiod Arthritis, it is a auto immune disorder and in seeing my doctors and holistic doctors, I am told exposure to food born bacteria and/or viruses etc. could be the cause of many auto immune problems in America today, they strongly discourage eating raw meats!   Dogs have been domesticated many centuries now and I question if they are still able to handle bacteria like a wild wolf can!  Wolf's have been wild for centuries and have adapted to eating their prey, a domestic dog has evolved to live with humans and I strongly question if they can suddenly be fed like a wolf, raw meats and not catch a bacteria born illness from the raw meat!!!!!!  They haven't had to hunt for themselves and eat raw meat for a long time now!  But if you feel raw feeding is ok and want to risk it, fine, but please know today's human raw meat is not safe by any means for humans, just turn on the news and read the papers!  Just the antibiotics feed to livestock scares me, medicine that used to work doesn't now.  My partner has been fighting the MRSA bacteria for 7 months now and 8 surgeries!  It is a super staph bacteria, that todays medicine can't cure, so they keep cutting it off him, and it keeps coming back!   We are worried for his life!  Ya, raw meats scare me!  I'll continue cooking meat to 180 degrees and feeding my dogs good quality dog food!  Good luck!

[hildiesmom]

I have Ruhmotiod Arthritis, it is a auto immune disorder and in seeing my doctors and holistic doctors, I am told exposure to food born bacteria and/or viruses etc. could be the cause of many auto immune problems in America today, they strongly discourage eating raw meats!   Dogs have been domesticated many centuries now and I question if they are still able to handle bacteria like a wild wolf can!  Wolf's have been wild for centuries and have adapted to eating their prey, a domestic dog has evolved to live with humans and I strongly question if they can suddenly be fed like a wolf, raw meats and not catch a bacteria born illness from the raw meat!!!!!!  They haven't had to hunt for themselves and eat raw meat for a long time now!  But if you feel raw feeding is ok and want to risk it, fine, but please know today's human raw meat is not safe by any means for humans, just turn on the news and read the papers! 

I understand RA. My mom and my brother have it. You might want to research gluten as a possible contributor to the RA. ;-)

I would suggest you read Carolyn Levin's outstanding book "Dogs, Diet, and Disease" to understand the concepts behind raw diet... you might also re-evaluate your opinion of a "quality" dog food. Grain based diets for dogs may, in fact, be causing some of the very things you are talking about as human problems--they are also occurring in dogs.

You mention that antibiotics in meats have caused the outbreak of antibiotic resistant disease... I'd also point out that our "obsession" with "cleanliness" has also created a situation where we are actually weakening the immune systems of both people and pets because they don't have to deal with simple immune challenges like they used to. Just food for thought.

My only point in this is that vets *automatically* blame it on the diet, when in fact they can't really be sure. There are *legions* of folks who feed raw--many for *YEARS*--without any problem.

I stand by my statement that using food from the human food stream, properly handled (and that's really the key here), there should be a very low risk for dogs from consumption of raw meat. Humans are another ballgame altogether--and I too take reasonable precautions with cooking meat (particularly from kitchens where I'm not the cook!).

My last post on feeding raw... I didn't want to start a fight, but clearly, it is not *always* the food...

[Dottiesdoxies]

You are so right about our obsession with being too clean!  My doctors have told me and my partner that has the MRSA bacteria, that all the products that contain antibacterial agents aren't worth much.  They contain just enough antibacterial stuff to make bacteria resistant to the drugs that kill bacteria.   They explained that if you expose bacteria to a low dose of antibacterial agents, it won't kill all the bacteria and the bacteria that remains becomes "used to" the agents and it no longer kills the bacteria, they in fact become imune to it!   Plus feeding our food chain animals food laced with antibiotics, is making bacteria resistant!  It really can be scary, if you think about it!  My Boss/Partner has been fighting his MRSA bacteria for 7 to 8 months, 7 surgeries and he still isn't rid of the bacteria!   Last tests this week showed there is still Mrsa present, but at much lower numbers!  If that bacteria enters the bloodstream and causes sepsis, he will die!  Scare me!!!  He is lucky to have the funds to fly in a specialist from overseas to help him try to be rid of this infection.  It all started with a brown recluse spider bite that caused rotting flesh and Mrsa bacteria got into the bite!
I also agree that grain based dog foods aren't great either, raw foods just scare me and toxo can be contracted by eating raw or undercooked meats!
Please take care of your health, I know the doctors say RA isn't supposed to be gentic, but my mother had it, one of my uncles (her brother) has it, my grandfather (her father) had it and a cousin (child, my uncle's grandchild)  has it!  I beieve it does run in gentic lines in families.  Two people in your family have it too.  Many people in my doctors office has multiple people in their families that have it!
Why do they say it is not genitic??
Thank you for the book reference on feeding raw, I will buy it and read it, an open mind is always best in life, and we can always learn something new, so I'll read it and see what it says, as you are right about the supposed "quality dog foods", but until us the public demans better from them, they will sell what makes them the most money!  I just try to buy the ones with the least grain and hope for the best!  Dogs are meat eaters and not meant to consume so much grain!
Gluten, where do I research that, I am sure open to anything that will help the RA.  Currently I have been in what they call "remission", for about 3 years now.  My hands are not normal anymore, but no other damage to my hands or other joints has happened in the last 3 years.  I am on Enbrel, methotrexate, low dose prendisone, and folic acid!   I worry all the time about infection, the RA is in great check, but the meds lower my imune system and the scare of infection is always a worry for me!  Any insight you or your family has into the RA will be greatly appreciated!  I am only 46 years old and the long term on the imune supressing drugs scare me!
I didn't mean to sound like I was confronting you, just that you can get sick, very sick from raw and uncooked meats, you are also right, when they can't find any reason for an illness in humans or dogs they balme the diet!   But what else could it be, I'm open to suggestions!  Thanks for you informative answer.  Sorry to be so long winded!

[hildiesmom]

I also agree that grain based dog foods aren't great either, raw foods just scare me and toxo can be contracted by eating raw or undercooked meats!
<snip>
I know the doctors say RA isn't supposed to be gentic,<snip>Many people in my doctors office has multiple people in their families that have it!
Why do they say it is not genitic??
<snip again>
Thank you for the book reference on feeding raw, I will buy it and read it, an open mind is always best in life, <snip>Dogs are meat eaters and not meant to consume so much grain!
<another snip>
Gluten, where do I research that, I am sure open to anything that will help the RA. <big snip>
I didn't mean to sound like I was confronting you, just that you can get sick, very sick from raw and uncooked meats, you are also right, when they can't find any reason for an illness in humans or dogs they balme the diet!   But what else could it be, I'm open to suggestions!  Thanks for you informative answer.  Sorry to be so long winded!

Hi Dottie,
I majorly snipped your message so I could reply and not forget everything I wanted to say. Nah, don't worry... I've defended raw feeding for so long, I'm used to finding folks who are afraid of it. You are absolutely right to feed the way you are *comfortable* with... I am not a raw feeder who says "you MUST feed raw or your dogs will die"... it just isn't so. BUT, I will tell you that the more you learn, the closer you will get to that way.

Dogs Diet & Disease is far more than a "raw diet" book--though I will tell you that Caroline Levin (a dachshund owner, by the way, and a really nice lady) does believe in feeding raw. It covers lots of things like diabetes, cushings, and other common immune problems--most of which are very, very common in dachshunds. She also has an *excellent* book on Canine Epilepsy. I own both, and can recommend them highly.

You are *completely* on the right track with feeding foods which are less grain based... read Caroline's book and she explains how the grain actually causes stimulation of hormones which are harmful to our animals. Not to mention, the quality of most of what is in the lower quality dog foods today... yuck. I honestly wish I could afford to feed organic meats to all my guys--but that is really out of my budget, even for myself, so I have to be content with (at least) human grade meats for my girls. Cooked, raw, or kibbled, I guess the point is to go to the best possible quality you can... especially when you consider that generally we feed our dogs the same thing day after day. Imagine what we'd look like if we ate McDonalds food every single day, and I guess that is a fair comparison to a dog who eats a lower quality food all the time. Might they be perfectly healthy? Sure. But could they be healthiER? You bet. LOL I could pass up the Big Mac, too... but that's not highly likely I'm afraid.

RA *is* genetic! Absolutely! LOL And yes, I worry all the time that I might end up with it. My mom has struggled with it for years--recently had to go back to drug therapy (and Remicaid) after being totally drug free thanks to holistic med and acupuncture. My brother is younger than me, so I worry about what might be in my future. Needless to say, I am careful about doing things that are harmful to my immune system. I also own a dog with serious immune issues--so immune system is one of the things that is a "pet" topic for me.

Let's see... Gluten...
http://www.celiac.com/st_prod.html?p_prodid=87
http://www.mercola.com/2001/may/26/wheat_gluten.htm
http://www.paleodiet.com/ra/

Hope that gives you some food for thought (no pun intended )

MaryAnne

[Dottiesdoxies]

Thanks....my mothers name was MaryAnne!  I'll go to the sites you suggested later tonight or in the am!  Take care and be well....any help, suggestions, corrections you have on auto-immune stuff is helpful and welcome!   Dottie

[Dee Dee and Hallie]

A few of you have been asking for an update on my friends golden who got toxo from eating raw meat. He had a bit of a better day yesterday but today is down again. Even though he's not a doxie he's Hallie's good buddy...any extra rays for him and his mom would be appreciated. His mom and I go waaay back, we've trained and showed dogs together thru Fred, Jessie and now Hallie.

Yes David, thank goodness we have the vet care we do now a days. You are certainly doing something right your boys have and are living long full lives! You got me curious so I just dug out an old dachshund book I have published in 1947. Interesting, it has a long chapter on diseases and ailments with no mention of disc disease... hmmm. They do talk a lot about worms and mange! For feeding it says "one feeding of meat or fish is enough. Other meals should consist of buttermilk, puppy biscuits with a few drops of cod liver oil". Things have changed! :) Wonder what was in those puppy biscuits. I couldn't find any reference to average life span in this book.

Sue I'd be interested in knowing if Patty's recipe helps the foster with allergies.